[Translators] Hebrew Translation

[Genghis Khan]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 14:25:02 +0200
fr33domlover <fr33domlover at riseup.net> wrote:

> Hmmmm looks like we disagree on things - I'll just make those POs...
> but here's a response to your last message.
> 
> On 2014-11-29
> "Genghis Khan" <genghiskhan at gmx.ca> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > > The original GNOME translation used to be exactly like the one of
> > > Microsoft Windows, by the way.
> > > 
> > > When users see the following on the same system (e.g. Windows):
> > > 
> > > Own              | Microsoft
> > > -----------------------------
> > > Cutting          | Cut
> > > Copying          | Copy
> > > Pasting          | Past
> > > Deleting         | Delete
> > > Selection of All | Select All
> > > 
> > > Most of them would drop Claws Mail. This is not a desired result!
> > > 
> > > If we would translate application against common guidelines,
> > > people and companies will almost always drop such applications!
> > > http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-l10n-he/2012-December/000245.html
> > > 
> > > When Android OS and Microsoft Windows would use "copying", I would
> > > definitely change my mind.
> 
> 
> Right now the entire GNOME translation is done using the Gezer rules:
> 
> http://wiki.hamakor.org.il/gezer/
> 

Android translators are doing a good job.

> Micros0ft is a closed-doors company, it's not like you can cooperate
> with them on translations of proprietary programs anyway... I
> personally don't care about Losedows, but like I said - I suggest to
> have a separate translation. Which one should be the main one - maybe
> depends on OS. On GNU/Linux perhaps the GNOME style which is by far
> more common (all my desktops through the years, with only Claws,
> Gigolo and few others being exceptions), or maybe an equal choice
> depending on your DE. On Losedows, it can be the current style.
> 

Why did you ignore Android?

> Even if the current style stays as default, I do want to have an
> alternative (I don't run Losedows).
> 

Please write so to the Claws Mail team, not to me.

> 
> > > > Here's a (controversial) idea: Since Claws can have i18n in a
> > > > separate package, why don't we create 2 separate PO files? One
> > > > would be in the KDE style and one in the GNOME style to which
> > > > I'm used (and I believe is superior).
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Since such style of using adverbs instead of verbs (biblical
> > > style) is rare, I suggest to open a project that would provide
> > > packages for many distributions with a new locale he_BL.
> 
> 
> It's not rare - the entire GNOME and most of XFCE and LXDE is like
> that! Open the menus of some apps, do right-clicks in text fields,
> look at toolbars... this is the common case, not a rare case... :-)
> 

It is rare. Sorry.

> For example, you'll see these in right-click and Edit menus:
> 
> העתקה
> הדבקה
> גזירה
> ביטול
> ביצוע חוזר
> יציאה
> פתיחה
> סגירה
> שמירה בשם
> 
> and not
> 
> העתק
> הדבק
> גזור
> בטל
> בצע שוב
> צא
> פתח
> סגור
> שמור בשם
> 
> There's also a gender problem! How do you explain all the women why
> the entire desktop in is masculine form? This is exactly why gender
> neutrality is important. In English verbs are neutral, in Hebrew not.
> But again, we can have 2 translations. 
> 

Ridiculous.

By the way, an end-user (be it male or female) tells to a computer
(male) a command:

(Computer, I command you to) Copy (to) Cut (and) Paste.

If there is a discrimination against a gender, it would be against
males, not females.

> > > > 
> > > > You see , using verbs like "copy" creates tons of inconsistency
> > > > and it's harder to the eyes. You have these on the same toolbar:
> > > > 
> > > > שליחה
> > > > טיוטה
> > > > שבץ
> > > > ספח
> > > > כתובת
> > > > 
> > > > Do you notice how some are verbs in one form, some in another,
> > > > and some are nouns? I want to try something more elegant like I
> > > > do with GNOME.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Yes, I did notice, as depicted in KDE/Windows translation
> > > guidelines. By the way, I have translated all toolbar buttons
> > > strings in Sylpheed to verbs, and I have planned to do the same
> > > in Claws-Mail.
> 
> Guidelines aren't carved on stone, they can contain mistakes etc. -
> who made these guidelines? Do you even trust Micros0ft to make good
> guidelines? I don't. Why does Claws even take KDE, Losedows or
> Andr0id as its guidelines? It's written in GTK+, so if at all take
> any guidelines, I'd take GNOME's as a default... but regardless -
> just curious, why KDE/Losedows/Andr0id guidelines?
> 

Because this is the familiar style.

> > > 
> > > It is not incorrect, it is not common. You might want to see how
> > > this word takes place in correspondences of several offices of
> > > the prime minister of the State of Israel.
> 
> As far as I know הלחנה comes from the same root as לחן which means
> "the music of a song" (as opposed to "the lyrics of a song"), which
> means that הלחנה means compose music, and doesn't work for anything
> else. Actually it's not even compose, but more like "write the music
> that accompanies the lyrics of a song". Otherwise, for a fresh new
> song, you say something like לכתוב שיר. For existing lyrics waiting
> for music you say להלחין את השיר. Of course I'm not an expert, but
> this is what comes to my mind intuitively.
> 

Why do you continue this part of argument even though I have expressed
my consent?

> > > 
> > > Back-end (מגשר-עורפי) Front-end (מגשר-חזיתי). So far, I have not
> > > saw anything better than these phrases, of which I am not the one
> > > who came up with. You might have seen the sign says איתנים בעורף
> > > מנצחים בחזית.
> > > 
> > > If you went to the army, these phrases would make perfect sense to
> > > you.
> 
> Army is irrelevant - people not in the army should understand too.
> And even being there doesn't help - I know what חזית and עורף are,
> but those translations for frontend and backend are still extremely
> unusual and unclear. They look like entirely new words. I would
> simply rephrase the entire sentence to avoid them, because there are
> no words for them. Just use מנשק or יישום instead of frontend, and
> backend will probably not be in POs because it's not UI... ;-)
> 

Ridiculous.

> The question is whether the simple user understands. When I
> translated "file format" to "תסדיר", I put the word פורמט in
> parentheses, so people can learn the new word and still understand.
> That frontend translation just hit me in the face, I felt I don't
> know hebrew for a moment...
> 

Did you know that it was me who came up with the word תסדיר?
Anyway, I use פורמט (format) due to popular demand.

> Anyway, since you're the maintainer - you have the choice to
> translate them in whatever way you feel like :-)
> 

I wrote that I am willing to hand it out, if you would not use adverbs
extensively.

> When there's a second PO by me, we can compare and improve if needed.
> 
> > > 
> > > (sarcasm)
> > > Please, ask Claws Mail team to stop providing a Microsoft Windows
> > > build of Claws Mail.
> > > (sarcasm)
> 

Even though I tagged this paragraph with (sarcasm), I expect you to
reply to it.

> But otherwise you give priority to Losedows over free OSs - why? If
> giving priority, I'd prefer to adapt the translation to free software
> first. But the Claws team decides, of course, for which OSs they make
> releases, and possibly which translation guidelines they want used.
> 

Biased. Claws Mail developers are, likely, smarter than that.

Why did you ignore Android?

> > > But most of Hebrew speaking audience (Android OS, iOS, Microsoft
> > > Windows) see that style every day. When the majority of Hebrew
> > > speaking users would use the biblical style, I promise I would
> > > adjust to it.
> 
> How would the style ever change... this is a chicken and egg problem.
> I would happily collaborate with them all - but how can you
> collaborate with proprietary software and giant companies? There's no
> community. Thanks to software freedom, we can easily have more than
> one PO file :-D
> 

Biased. Claws Mail developers are, likely, smarter than that.

Why did you ignore Android?

> > > 
> > > Do you apply that there is discrimination against one of the
> > > genders?
> > > 
> > > While most words in French are feminine, GNOME-FR an KDE-FR are
> > > translating all strings in consistent masculine-only form. There
> > > is nothing machismo or sexist about that.
> 
> Sure there is. Hypohtetic question from a woman to you: Why masculine
> and not feminine?
> 

Because this is how it is in Adobe, Android OS, Google, KDE and
Microsoft Windows. Ask the French translators about the rest.

> When I translate longer texts (e.g. website) where I must choose
> gender, I either use לשון רבים or mix - one paragraph זכר, one
> paragraph נקבה. If you choose masculine, you should at least give the
> world's women a good explanation of your choice. Otherwise, let's
> make half strings/apps in masculine form, and the other half feminine.
> 

Websites are not desktop or mobile software.

> In Hebrew gender neutrality is possible - the entire GNOME including
> tons of external projects they host, and most of LXDE and XFCE - are
> translated in gender neutral style, intentionally.
> 

This is not true, but even if so, I do not consider 20% of complete work
as entire, let alone corrupted.

> > > 
> > > Q: Did the "translator" who is responsible for this new biblical
> > > style asked the original translators (including myself - under
> > > another nickname) about the changes that he has made?
> > > A: No.
> > > 
> > > Q: Does this "translator" using he_IL locale or en_US?
> > > A: en_US.
> > > 
> > > Q: Did this translator is spawning his name in credits even when
> > > he "contributes" (not to say corrupting) to the work of others?
> > 
> > "contributes" two (2) strings to the work of others?
> > 
> > > A: Yes, MANY TIMES!
> 
> Hmmm maybe I'm misising something - who are you referring to or
> replying to in this message? Since I didn't yet translate anything in
> Claws, I suppose it's not me.
> 

No, it is not you.

> > > P.S. I have contributed over 50% of strings to Liferea, while each
> > > time I ask the original translator to review my changes and I have
> > > asked not to appear in credits dialog (this is why I also use this
> > > pseudo name).
> 
> I usually add myself to the credits when I make a significant change,
> like making a whole new translation. But again, it doesn't look like
> a reply to me, somewhat not in context. Maybe it's a past message on
> the ML which I missed? I subscribed just few hours ago.
> 

Post a reference in your CV when you send it, and show them
screenshots of your work.

> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bottom line... I'll make my PO and we'll run diff and claws and see
> what it looks like.
> 

Please follow:

http://il.kde.org/hebrew/visualdict/
http://il.kde.org/hebrew/guidelines/

> Claws, unlike most of my translations, is not tied to any specific DE
> or OS - it seems - so I guess this is why it's the first time I see
> this kind of style on my desktop. I hope I was reasonably
> objective/nice in my comments - I just wanted to express thoughts.
> 

Like many Free Software, Claws Mail also run on Microsoft Windows and
so there must be consistency with it; and there are theme engines for
GTK+ widgets to appear as native KDE widgets. You have ignored this
issue, as well. Please be less biased.

> PO coming soon :-)

I would accept alternative phrases and words; I will reject corrupted
contexts resulted from translating English verbs into Hebrew adverbs.

I firmly suggest you to initiate a project where biblical-style
translations (he_BL) be managed at one spot for as many software as you
want and make packages of these translations for as many*NIX
distributions you want.