[Translators] Hebrew Translation

[fr33domlover]

Since I think most things have been cleared, this is a short reply just to
summarize. I could make a long reply like the previous ones, but it doesn't
lead anywhere anyway so here's a new approach.



I realize you want the verbs in the translation in command-style. I'm strongly
in favor of שמות פעולה instead of that, after trying both styles for years (I
think it clears out the imaginary human-computer "dialog" from the semantics
and leaves just the core of the meaning. But that's not important). Since at
least some people want it like that (even if just a few), it should be made
possible (software freedom). It has nothing to do with biblical style - it's
just one of the various ways to translate.

No single way is correct - as you can see here it's just a decision Gezer made:

http://wiki.hamakor.org.il/index.php/Gezer/כללי_התרגום_המלאים#.D7.90.D7.93.D7.95.D7.A0.D7.99.2C_.D7.90.D7.93.D7.95.D7.A0.D7.99.2C_.D7.9E.D7.94_.D7.A2.D7.9D_.D7.94.D7.9E.D7.99.D7.9F_.D7.94.D7.A9.D7.A0.D7.99.3F

Since you're a native speaker/writer just like me, I don't see a reason to
correct your choice of words and phrases (unless I find an unnoticed mistake),
but in my alternative PO I'll probably change some and if you like then, they
can be merged into Claws' he.po too.

Clearly no single style can be perfect for a multi platform application, just
like applications that try to look native everywhere end up not being
perfectly native in any platform. If the current style works for most Claws
users who use he_IL - great, let's keep it. I'm just adding an alternative
that is more consistent with GNOME, XFCE and LXDE.

I have no idea about Andr0id translations because I don't have any device
running it, and I have no idea whether the translators there are volunteers or
paid. With or without it, the "common" style depends on whether you take
proprietary OSs into account. On your list command-style is common because
most items are proprietary (or developed behind closed doors), while on my
list it's rare because I listed only free DEs and OSs. How important the
proprietary systems are for Claws developers - I have no idea. But if you
prefer command-style, so be it - you're the maintainer + nobody complained so
far.

My next message will hopefully have the PO attached... (will take a while
though, I didn't check the size yet) 




> 
> Android translators are doing a good job.
> 
> > Micros0ft is a closed-doors company, it's not like you can cooperate
> > with them on translations of proprietary programs anyway... I
> > personally don't care about Losedows, but like I said - I suggest to
> > have a separate translation. Which one should be the main one - maybe
> > depends on OS. On GNU/Linux perhaps the GNOME style which is by far
> > more common (all my desktops through the years, with only Claws,
> > Gigolo and few others being exceptions), or maybe an equal choice
> > depending on your DE. On Losedows, it can be the current style.
> > 
> 
> Why did you ignore Android?
> 
> > Even if the current style stays as default, I do want to have an
> > alternative (I don't run Losedows).
> > 
> 
> Please write so to the Claws Mail team, not to me.
> 
> > 
> > > > > Here's a (controversial) idea: Since Claws can have i18n in a
> > > > > separate package, why don't we create 2 separate PO files? One
> > > > > would be in the KDE style and one in the GNOME style to which
> > > > > I'm used (and I believe is superior).
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Since such style of using adverbs instead of verbs (biblical
> > > > style) is rare, I suggest to open a project that would provide
> > > > packages for many distributions with a new locale he_BL.
> > 
> > 
> > It's not rare - the entire GNOME and most of XFCE and LXDE is like
> > that! Open the menus of some apps, do right-clicks in text fields,
> > look at toolbars... this is the common case, not a rare case... :-)
> > 
> 
> It is rare. Sorry.
> 
> > For example, you'll see these in right-click and Edit menus:
> > 
> > העתקה
> > הדבקה
> > גזירה
> > ביטול
> > ביצוע חוזר
> > יציאה
> > פתיחה
> > סגירה
> > שמירה בשם
> > 
> > and not
> > 
> > העתק
> > הדבק
> > גזור
> > בטל
> > בצע שוב
> > צא
> > פתח
> > סגור
> > שמור בשם
> > 
> > There's also a gender problem! How do you explain all the women why
> > the entire desktop in is masculine form? This is exactly why gender
> > neutrality is important. In English verbs are neutral, in Hebrew not.
> > But again, we can have 2 translations. 
> > 
> 
> Ridiculous.
> 
> By the way, an end-user (be it male or female) tells to a computer
> (male) a command:
> 
> (Computer, I command you to) Copy (to) Cut (and) Paste.
> 
> If there is a discrimination against a gender, it would be against
> males, not females.
> 
> > > > > 
> > > > > You see , using verbs like "copy" creates tons of inconsistency
> > > > > and it's harder to the eyes. You have these on the same toolbar:
> > > > > 
> > > > > שליחה
> > > > > טיוטה
> > > > > שבץ
> > > > > ספח
> > > > > כתובת
> > > > > 
> > > > > Do you notice how some are verbs in one form, some in another,
> > > > > and some are nouns? I want to try something more elegant like I
> > > > > do with GNOME.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, I did notice, as depicted in KDE/Windows translation
> > > > guidelines. By the way, I have translated all toolbar buttons
> > > > strings in Sylpheed to verbs, and I have planned to do the same
> > > > in Claws-Mail.
> > 
> > Guidelines aren't carved on stone, they can contain mistakes etc. -
> > who made these guidelines? Do you even trust Micros0ft to make good
> > guidelines? I don't. Why does Claws even take KDE, Losedows or
> > Andr0id as its guidelines? It's written in GTK+, so if at all take
> > any guidelines, I'd take GNOME's as a default... but regardless -
> > just curious, why KDE/Losedows/Andr0id guidelines?
> > 
> 
> Because this is the familiar style.
> 
> > > > 
> > > > It is not incorrect, it is not common. You might want to see how
> > > > this word takes place in correspondences of several offices of
> > > > the prime minister of the State of Israel.
> > 
> > As far as I know הלחנה comes from the same root as לחן which means
> > "the music of a song" (as opposed to "the lyrics of a song"), which
> > means that הלחנה means compose music, and doesn't work for anything
> > else. Actually it's not even compose, but more like "write the music
> > that accompanies the lyrics of a song". Otherwise, for a fresh new
> > song, you say something like לכתוב שיר. For existing lyrics waiting
> > for music you say להלחין את השיר. Of course I'm not an expert, but
> > this is what comes to my mind intuitively.
> > 
> 
> Why do you continue this part of argument even though I have expressed
> my consent?
> 
> > > > 
> > > > Back-end (מגשר-עורפי) Front-end (מגשר-חזיתי). So far, I have not
> > > > saw anything better than these phrases, of which I am not the one
> > > > who came up with. You might have seen the sign says איתנים בעורף
> > > > מנצחים בחזית.
> > > > 
> > > > If you went to the army, these phrases would make perfect sense to
> > > > you.
> > 
> > Army is irrelevant - people not in the army should understand too.
> > And even being there doesn't help - I know what חזית and עורף are,
> > but those translations for frontend and backend are still extremely
> > unusual and unclear. They look like entirely new words. I would
> > simply rephrase the entire sentence to avoid them, because there are
> > no words for them. Just use מנשק or יישום instead of frontend, and
> > backend will probably not be in POs because it's not UI... ;-)
> > 
> 
> Ridiculous.
> 
> > The question is whether the simple user understands. When I
> > translated "file format" to "תסדיר", I put the word פורמט in
> > parentheses, so people can learn the new word and still understand.
> > That frontend translation just hit me in the face, I felt I don't
> > know hebrew for a moment...
> > 
> 
> Did you know that it was me who came up with the word תסדיר?
> Anyway, I use פורמט (format) due to popular demand.
> 
> > Anyway, since you're the maintainer - you have the choice to
> > translate them in whatever way you feel like :-)
> > 
> 
> I wrote that I am willing to hand it out, if you would not use adverbs
> extensively.
> 
> > When there's a second PO by me, we can compare and improve if needed.
> > 
> > > > 
> > > > (sarcasm)
> > > > Please, ask Claws Mail team to stop providing a Microsoft Windows
> > > > build of Claws Mail.
> > > > (sarcasm)
> > 
> 
> Even though I tagged this paragraph with (sarcasm), I expect you to
> reply to it.
> 
> > But otherwise you give priority to Losedows over free OSs - why? If
> > giving priority, I'd prefer to adapt the translation to free software
> > first. But the Claws team decides, of course, for which OSs they make
> > releases, and possibly which translation guidelines they want used.
> > 
> 
> Biased. Claws Mail developers are, likely, smarter than that.
> 
> Why did you ignore Android?
> 
> > > > But most of Hebrew speaking audience (Android OS, iOS, Microsoft
> > > > Windows) see that style every day. When the majority of Hebrew
> > > > speaking users would use the biblical style, I promise I would
> > > > adjust to it.
> > 
> > How would the style ever change... this is a chicken and egg problem.
> > I would happily collaborate with them all - but how can you
> > collaborate with proprietary software and giant companies? There's no
> > community. Thanks to software freedom, we can easily have more than
> > one PO file :-D
> > 
> 
> Biased. Claws Mail developers are, likely, smarter than that.
> 
> Why did you ignore Android?
> 
> > > > 
> > > > Do you apply that there is discrimination against one of the
> > > > genders?
> > > > 
> > > > While most words in French are feminine, GNOME-FR an KDE-FR are
> > > > translating all strings in consistent masculine-only form. There
> > > > is nothing machismo or sexist about that.
> > 
> > Sure there is. Hypohtetic question from a woman to you: Why masculine
> > and not feminine?
> > 
> 
> Because this is how it is in Adobe, Android OS, Google, KDE and
> Microsoft Windows. Ask the French translators about the rest.
> 
> > When I translate longer texts (e.g. website) where I must choose
> > gender, I either use לשון רבים or mix - one paragraph זכר, one
> > paragraph נקבה. If you choose masculine, you should at least give the
> > world's women a good explanation of your choice. Otherwise, let's
> > make half strings/apps in masculine form, and the other half feminine.
> > 
> 
> Websites are not desktop or mobile software.
> 
> > In Hebrew gender neutrality is possible - the entire GNOME including
> > tons of external projects they host, and most of LXDE and XFCE - are
> > translated in gender neutral style, intentionally.
> > 
> 
> This is not true, but even if so, I do not consider 20% of complete work
> as entire, let alone corrupted.
> 
> > > > 
> > > > Q: Did the "translator" who is responsible for this new biblical
> > > > style asked the original translators (including myself - under
> > > > another nickname) about the changes that he has made?
> > > > A: No.
> > > > 
> > > > Q: Does this "translator" using he_IL locale or en_US?
> > > > A: en_US.
> > > > 
> > > > Q: Did this translator is spawning his name in credits even when
> > > > he "contributes" (not to say corrupting) to the work of others?
> > > 
> > > "contributes" two (2) strings to the work of others?
> > > 
> > > > A: Yes, MANY TIMES!
> > 
> > Hmmm maybe I'm misising something - who are you referring to or
> > replying to in this message? Since I didn't yet translate anything in
> > Claws, I suppose it's not me.
> > 
> 
> No, it is not you.
> 
> > > > P.S. I have contributed over 50% of strings to Liferea, while each
> > > > time I ask the original translator to review my changes and I have
> > > > asked not to appear in credits dialog (this is why I also use this
> > > > pseudo name).
> > 
> > I usually add myself to the credits when I make a significant change,
> > like making a whole new translation. But again, it doesn't look like
> > a reply to me, somewhat not in context. Maybe it's a past message on
> > the ML which I missed? I subscribed just few hours ago.
> > 
> 
> Post a reference in your CV when you send it, and show them
> screenshots of your work.
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Bottom line... I'll make my PO and we'll run diff and claws and see
> > what it looks like.
> > 
> 
> Please follow:
> 
> http://il.kde.org/hebrew/visualdict/
> http://il.kde.org/hebrew/guidelines/
> 
> > Claws, unlike most of my translations, is not tied to any specific DE
> > or OS - it seems - so I guess this is why it's the first time I see
> > this kind of style on my desktop. I hope I was reasonably
> > objective/nice in my comments - I just wanted to express thoughts.
> > 
> 
> Like many Free Software, Claws Mail also run on Microsoft Windows and
> so there must be consistency with it; and there are theme engines for
> GTK+ widgets to appear as native KDE widgets. You have ignored this
> issue, as well. Please be less biased.
> 
> > PO coming soon :-)
> 
> I would accept alternative phrases and words; I will reject corrupted
> contexts resulted from translating English verbs into Hebrew adverbs.
> 
> I firmly suggest you to initiate a project where biblical-style
> translations (he_BL) be managed at one spot for as many software as you
> want and make packages of these translations for as many*NIX
> distributions you want.
> _______________________________________________
> Translators mailing list
> Translators at lists.claws-mail.org
> http://lists.claws-mail.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/translators

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