[Translators] Hebrew Translation

[fr33domlover]

Hmmmm looks like we disagree on things - I'll just make those POs...
but here's a response to your last message.

On 2014-11-29
"Genghis Khan" <genghiskhan at gmx.ca> wrote:

> 
> > The original GNOME translation used to be exactly like the one of
> > Microsoft Windows, by the way.
> > 
> > When users see the following on the same system (e.g. Windows):
> > 
> > Own              | Microsoft
> > -----------------------------
> > Cutting          | Cut
> > Copying          | Copy
> > Pasting          | Past
> > Deleting         | Delete
> > Selection of All | Select All
> > 
> > Most of them would drop Claws Mail. This is not a desired result!
> > 
> > If we would translate application against common guidelines, people
> > and companies will almost always drop such applications!
> > http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-l10n-he/2012-December/000245.html
> > 
> > When Android OS and Microsoft Windows would use "copying", I would
> > definitely change my mind.


Right now the entire GNOME translation is done using the Gezer rules:

http://wiki.hamakor.org.il/gezer/

Micros0ft is a closed-doors company, it's not like you can cooperate with them
on translations of proprietary programs anyway... I personally don't care about
Losedows, but like I said - I suggest to have a separate translation. Which one
should be the main one - maybe depends on OS. On GNU/Linux perhaps the GNOME
style which is by far more common (all my desktops through the years, with only
Claws, Gigolo and few others being exceptions), or maybe an equal choice
depending on your DE. On Losedows, it can be the current style.

Even if the current style stays as default, I do want to have an alternative (I
don't run Losedows).


> > > Here's a (controversial) idea: Since Claws can have i18n in a
> > > separate package, why don't we create 2 separate PO files? One would
> > > be in the KDE style and one in the GNOME style to which I'm used
> > > (and I believe is superior).
> > > 
> > 
> > Since such style of using adverbs instead of verbs (biblical style) is
> > rare, I suggest to open a project that would provide packages for many
> > distributions with a new locale he_BL.


It's not rare - the entire GNOME and most of XFCE and LXDE is like that! Open
the menus of some apps, do right-clicks in text fields, look at toolbars...
this is the common case, not a rare case... :-)

For example, you'll see these in right-click and Edit menus:

העתקה
הדבקה
גזירה
ביטול
ביצוע חוזר
יציאה
פתיחה
סגירה
שמירה בשם

and not

העתק
הדבק
גזור
בטל
בצע שוב
צא
פתח
סגור
שמור בשם

There's also a gender problem! How do you explain all the women why the entire
desktop in is masculine form? This is exactly why gender neutrality is
important. In English verbs are neutral, in Hebrew not. But again, we can have
2 translations. 

> > > 
> > > You see , using verbs like "copy" creates tons of inconsistency and
> > > it's harder to the eyes. You have these on the same toolbar:
> > > 
> > > שליחה
> > > טיוטה
> > > שבץ
> > > ספח
> > > כתובת
> > > 
> > > Do you notice how some are verbs in one form, some in another, and
> > > some are nouns? I want to try something more elegant like I do with
> > > GNOME.
> > > 
> > 
> > Yes, I did notice, as depicted in KDE/Windows translation guidelines.
> > By the way, I have translated all toolbar buttons strings in Sylpheed
> > to verbs, and I have planned to do the same in Claws-Mail.

Guidelines aren't carved on stone, they can contain mistakes etc. - who made
these guidelines? Do you even trust Micros0ft to make good guidelines? I don't.
Why does Claws even take KDE, Losedows or Andr0id as its guidelines? It's
written in GTK+, so if at all take any guidelines, I'd take GNOME's as a
default... but regardless - just curious, why KDE/Losedows/Andr0id guidelines?

> > 
> > It is not incorrect, it is not common. You might want to see how this
> > word takes place in correspondences of several offices of the prime
> > minister of the State of Israel.

As far as I know הלחנה comes from the same root as לחן which means "the music
of a song" (as opposed to "the lyrics of a song"), which means that הלחנה means
compose music, and doesn't work for anything else. Actually it's not even
compose, but more like "write the music that accompanies the lyrics of a song".
Otherwise, for a fresh new song, you say something like לכתוב שיר. For existing
lyrics waiting for music you say להלחין את השיר. Of course I'm not an expert,
but this is what comes to my mind intuitively.

> > 
> > Back-end (מגשר-עורפי) Front-end (מגשר-חזיתי). So far, I have not saw
> > anything better than these phrases, of which I am not the one who came
> > up with. You might have seen the sign says איתנים בעורף מנצחים בחזית.
> > 
> > If you went to the army, these phrases would make perfect sense to
> > you.

Army is irrelevant - people not in the army should understand too. And even
being there doesn't help - I know what חזית and עורף are, but those
translations for frontend and backend are still extremely unusual and unclear.
They look like entirely new words. I would simply rephrase the entire sentence
to avoid them, because there are no words for them. Just use מנשק or יישום
instead of frontend, and backend will probably not be in POs because it's not
UI... ;-)

The question is whether the simple user understands. When I translated "file
format" to "תסדיר", I put the word פורמט in parentheses, so people can learn
the new word and still understand. That frontend translation just hit me in the
face, I felt I don't know hebrew for a moment...

Anyway, since you're the maintainer - you have the choice to translate them in
whatever way you feel like :-)

When there's a second PO by me, we can compare and improve if needed.

> > 
> > (sarcasm)
> > Please, ask Claws Mail team to stop providing a Microsoft Windows
> > build of Claws Mail.
> > (sarcasm)

But otherwise you give priority to Losedows over free OSs - why? If giving
priority, I'd prefer to adapt the translation to free software first. But the
Claws team decides, of course, for which OSs they make releases, and possibly
which translation guidelines they want used.

> > But most of Hebrew speaking audience (Android OS, iOS, Microsoft
> > Windows) see that style every day. When the majority of Hebrew
> > speaking users would use the biblical style, I promise I would adjust
> > to it.

How would the style ever change... this is a chicken and egg problem. I would
happily collaborate with them all - but how can you collaborate with
proprietary software and giant companies? There's no community. Thanks to
software freedom, we can easily have more than one PO file :-D

> > 
> > Do you apply that there is discrimination against one of the genders?
> > 
> > While most words in French are feminine, GNOME-FR an KDE-FR are
> > translating all strings in consistent masculine-only form. There is
> > nothing machismo or sexist about that.

Sure there is. Hypohtetic question from a woman to you: Why masculine and not
feminine?

When I translate longer texts (e.g. website) where I must choose gender, I
either use לשון רבים or mix - one paragraph זכר, one paragraph נקבה. If you
choose masculine, you should at least give the world's women a good explanation
of your choice. Otherwise, let's make half strings/apps in masculine form, and
the other half feminine.

In Hebrew gender neutrality is possible - the entire GNOME including tons of
external projects they host, and most of LXDE and XFCE - are translated in
gender neutral style, intentionally.

> > 
> > Q: Did the "translator" who is responsible for this new biblical style
> >    asked the original translators (including myself - under another
> >    nickname) about the changes that he has made?
> > A: No.
> > 
> > Q: Does this "translator" using he_IL locale or en_US?
> > A: en_US.
> > 
> > Q: Did this translator is spawning his name in credits even when he
> >    "contributes" (not to say corrupting) to the work of others?
> 
> "contributes" two (2) strings to the work of others?
> 
> > A: Yes, MANY TIMES!

Hmmm maybe I'm misising something - who are you referring to or replying to in
this message? Since I didn't yet translate anything in Claws, I suppose it's
not me.

> > P.S. I have contributed over 50% of strings to Liferea, while each
> > time I ask the original translator to review my changes and I have
> > asked not to appear in credits dialog (this is why I also use this
> > pseudo name).

I usually add myself to the credits when I make a significant change, like
making a whole new translation. But again, it doesn't look like a reply to me,
somewhat not in context. Maybe it's a past message on the ML which I missed? I
subscribed just few hours ago.





Bottom line... I'll make my PO and we'll run diff and claws and see what it
looks like.

Claws, unlike most of my translations, is not tied to any specific DE or OS -
it seems - so I guess this is why it's the first time I see this kind of style
on my desktop. I hope I was reasonably objective/nice in my comments - I just
wanted to express thoughts.

PO coming soon :-)
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