[Translators] Hebrew Translation

Sat Nov 29 12:23:04 CET 2014

Some corrections to previous message.

On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 12:15:28 +0100
"Genghis Khan" <genghiskhan at gmx.ca> wrote:

> I am not translating for an audience of 20 special users, I am
> translating for the majority of the Hebrew speaking audience.
> 
> On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 11:38:55 +0200
> fr33domlover <fr33domlover at riseup.net> wrote:
> 
> > On 2014-11-29
> > "Genghis Khan" <genghiskhan at gmx.ca> wrote:
> > 
> > > 
> > > I am very delighted about you contacting me on this matter.  I
> > > would appreciate you taking over the translation of Claws Mail,
> > > too, as long as you would not distort context (i.e. turning verb
> > > into adverb, e.g. copy into copying)
> > 
> > 
> > Actually I'm for using "copying" and not "copy". I really like the
> > translations of GNOME and some parts of XFCE and LXDE and I think
> > they're the best translations around. Mozilla, KDE, etc. are not as
> > good. For example I don't like KDE's use of gender. I prefer gender
> > neutrality.
> > 
> 
> (sarcasm)
> You as well tell that to all those who write theme engines for various
> of toolkits, that attempt to create a consistent look and feel.
> (sarcasm)
> 

You might as well tell

> The original GNOME translation used to be exactly like the one of
> Microsoft Windows, by the way.
> 
> When users see the following on the same system (e.g. Windows):
> 
> Own              | Microsoft
> -----------------------------
> Cutting          | Cut
> Copying          | Copy
> Pasting          | Past
> Deleting         | Delete
> Selection of All | Select All
> 
> Most of them would drop Claws Mail. This is not a desired result!
> 
> If we would translate application against common guidelines, people
> and companies will almost always drop such applications!
> http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-l10n-he/2012-December/000245.html
> 
> When Android OS and Microsoft Windows would use "copying", I would
> definitely change my mind.
> 
> > Here's a (controversial) idea: Since Claws can have i18n in a
> > separate package, why don't we create 2 separate PO files? One would
> > be in the KDE style and one in the GNOME style to which I'm used
> > (and I believe is superior).
> > 
> 
> Since such style of using adverbs instead of verbs (biblical style) is
> rare, I suggest to open a project that would provide packages for many
> distributions with a new locale he_BL.
> 
> > 
> > You see , using verbs like "copy" creates tons of inconsistency and
> > it's harder to the eyes. You have these on the same toolbar:
> > 
> > שליחה
> > טיוטה
> > שבץ
> > ספח
> > כתובת
> > 
> > Do you notice how some are verbs in one form, some in another, and
> > some are nouns? I want to try something more elegant like I do with
> > GNOME.
> > 
> 
> Yes, I did notice, as depicted in KDE/Windows translation guidelines.
> By the way, I have translated all toolbar buttons strings in Sylpheed
> to verbs, and I have planned to do the same in Claws-Mail.
> 
> > 
> >  
> > > It appears that Claws Mail uses an older tree widget. See Sylpheed
> > > for a proper tree (though, I like the resize effect - black line -
> > > of Claws Mail tree than the one of Sylpheed - content changing),
> > > but still, there is, at least, ome tree widget in Claws Mail that
> > > is RTL adaptable.
> > > 
> > > http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/sylpheed-claws/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=2795
> > > http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/sylpheed-claws/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=2836
> > > http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/sylpheed-claws/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3095
> > 
> > I'll take a look sometime.
> > 
> > > > As to the first, here's the story. I suggested to make the
> > > > Hebrew translation, but I was told someone nicknamed
> > > > GenghisKhan was already making one. When I tried that
> > > > translation, I noticed strange things. For example, "Compose"
> > > > is translated as "הלחנה" which means "compose music" and is not
> > > > suitable for "compose message".
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I like הלחנה more, but I agree with you.
> > 
> > Sure, but it's incorrect. I always prefer to use the existing words
> > that make sense. It must work well for new non-technical users
> > (imho).
> > 
> 
> It is not incorrect, it is not common. You might want to see how this
> word takes place in correspondences of several offices of the prime
> minister of the State of Israel.
> 
> > > > Many examples like this exist there, so I decided to ask whether
> > > > maybe the translator's native language is not Hebrew. I was told
> > > > he stands behind his translation and that's fine - but I'd like
> > > > to have a chance to propose my own too.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I did wrote that I use words that are not commonly used.
> > 
> > As long as people understand. In some other application you
> > translated, Gigolo, I saw the word מגשר־חזיתי in the About window.
> > What the hack is מגשר־חזיתי? Nobody would have any idea. I needed a
> > few long seconds to understand it probably means frontend. But it
> > may be a bit too much - we should target the simple users, not
> > uourselves, the translators, who may be amused by new words :-)
> > 
> 
> Back-end (מגשר-עורפי) Front-end (מגשר-חזיתי). So far, I have not saw
> anything better than these phrases, of which I am not the one who came
> up with. You might have seen the sign says איתנים בעורף מנצחים בחזית.
> 
> If you went to the army, these phrases would make perfect sense to
> you.
> 
> > > > Here's what I suggest: I will at some point (when a bit less
> > > > busy) make a PO file based on the current one, with my fixes,
> > > > and send it here so GenghisKhan can take a look and see if he
> > > > likes it. If he does - perfect, we can merge the changes. If
> > > > not... well, at least tell me why :-)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Please do; and please either follow Microsoft Windows guidelines
> > > whereas verbs are verbs and Window Title & Menu Item... are
> > > adverbs, as depicted in the links below:
> > 
> > Micros0ft Losedows is a proprietary OS, there's no way I'm using
> > anything that comes from them...
> > 
> 
> (sarcasm)
> Please, ask Claws Mail team to stop providing a Microsoft Windows
> build of Claws Mail.
> (sarcasm)
> 
> > In the worst case, if Claws officially goes by KDE, I'll just make
> > 1) PO file with some words replaced with more simple ones but verbs
> > unchanged, 2) same but also with the overall style like my GNOME
> > translations, which can be a separate patch people can apply.
> > 
> > The one can be in Claws and the other can just be a patch.
> > Personally, the current style (no offense, I guess it's KDE rules)
> > hurts my eyes and I can't easily find things, so I'll probably
> > prefer the patch.
> > 
> 
> But most of Hebrew speaking audience (Android OS, iOS, Microsoft
> Windows) see that style every day. When the majority of Hebrew
> speaking users would use the biblical style, I promise I would adjust
> to it.
> 
> > > http://il.kde.org/hebrew/visualdict/
> > > http://il.kde.org/hebrew/guidelines/
> > > 
> > > Or in Android, KDE style.
> > > 
> > > Nowadays, KDE Hebrew is translated in masculine-only style (i.e.
> > > no arbitrary use of adverbs as suggested in above couple of
> > > links).
> > 
> > I think gender neutrality is a superior approach, that's why verbs
> > (e.g. "copy") are not used (instead I use "copying").
> > 
> 
> Do you apply that there is discrimination against one of the genders?
> 
> While most words in French are feminine, GNOME-FR an KDE-FR are
> translating all strings in consistent masculine-only form. There is
> nothing machismo or sexist about that.
> 
> 
> > > > I already translated various apps and websites (or parts of
> > > > them) to Hebrew (especially ones maintained under GNOME, but
> > > > also others), so there's no problem on the technical side. I
> > > > just want to help keep a high level of Hebrew translation :-)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Great!
> > > 
> > > > (GenghisKhan - I don't in any way mean to offend. I just want to
> > > > help improve Claws and its translation. Let's work together on
> > > > this.)
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > No way. The more translators, the better. The goal is to get more
> > > users to use either free operating systems or, at least, standard
> > > formats.
> > 
> > 
> > Great. I believe one translator per language is enough for Claws,
> > and I'm glad to see it has a maintainer for Hebrew. I thought I
> > could be, before I realized you already translated it :-)
> > I'll just send you POs when they're ready and you'll judge.
> > 
> 
> Please follow:
> 
> http://il.kde.org/hebrew/visualdict/
> http://il.kde.org/hebrew/guidelines/
> 
> No verb as adverb.
> 
> > BTW I'm using LXDE and XFCE, i.e. not GNOME/KDE, and almost
> > everything is in the GNOME style. It's also the same translators as
> > GNOME, so makes sense. So this style may end up being consistent
> > with much more software (although I do think it's superior
> > regardless, so maybe I'm biased).
> > 
> 
> Q: Did the "translator" who is responsible for this new biblical style
>    asked the original translators (including myself - under another
>    nickname) about the changes that he has made?
> A: No.
> 
> Q: Does this "translator" using he_IL locale or en_US?
> A: en_US.
> 
> Q: Did this translator is spawning his name in credits even when he
>    "contributes" (not to say corrupting) to the work of others?

"contributes" two (2) strings to the work of others?

> A: Yes, MANY TIMES!
> 
> P.S. I have contributed over 50% of strings to Liferea, while each
> time I ask the original translator to review my changes and I have
> asked not to appear in credits dialog (this is why I also use this
> pseudo name).
> 
> > 
> > > > --
> > > > fr33domlover
> > > > PGP key ID: 63E5E57D
> > 
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