[Users] Message shows strange redirection (reveals censorship)

Miroslav Rovis m.rovis at inet.hr
Tue Dec 11 18:34:21 CET 2012

On Mon, 10 Dec 2012 12:25:00 +0100
Colin Leroy <colin at colino.net> wrote:

> Hi,
> > Line 3:
> > Received: (qmail 215653 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2012 13:51:50
> > +0100
> To cut to the point, Received lines are to be read from the last to
> the first (each server add its line at the start).
> That mail's headers seem perfectly normal to me. Your
> correspondent at pugna.hr sent his email to his SMTP server of choice,
> carbon.studio4web.com using his station (barisispc), which forwarded
> the email to the next server for your domain, 8-226.dsl.iskon.hr. That
> server forwarded it to in4.mail.iskon.hr, which finally delivered it
> to popbox.iskon.hr for you to retrieve it.
> is just the IP of your correspondant's mail server.

Thank you for answering that tech detail. Actually it is my
correspondent's mail server's IP, isn't it?

But, how come he sent his e-mail to:

Line 57 and on from the attachment in the first mail of this thread,
the attachment that I gave the name:
(pls. note esp. line 60), so Lines 57-61 follow:

-----Original Message-----
From: Pugna d.o.o. [mailto:pugna at pugna.hr]=20
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2012 1:48 PM
To: 'croatian-news at googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: Dopu=B9tenje za uporabu Markovih pjesama uz nekoliko minuta

Again, pls. notice that pugna at pugna.hr (hey, what's that "mailto:"
there? strange!) sent the mail to croatian-news at googlegroups.com
(that's line 60, the one key point)

And how come the very first three lines of the source mail tell
the Return-Path, but not the true sender of the *forwarded mail*, almost
none of the details on the true sender of the *forwarded mail*, but
still just barely enough to know that it was Google Mail, the true
sender of the *forwarded mail*?

Here are the first 3 lines of the source mail in question.

Return-Path: <pugna at pugna.hr>
Delivered-To: mirovis+m.rovis at inet.hr
Received: (qmail 215653 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2012 13:51:50 +0100

And pls. what is that "215653" number? I bet not even the Claws
developers can tell us, because it's something btwn Iskon and Google
Mail, not for the public! That's my bet! It's not time in UTC, is it?
But OK, correct me if I'm wrong!

The Return-Path line (Line 1) does not tell us the sender of that
forwarded mail. Was there something scrapped from the original Google
*forwarded mail* containing the original mail to Google (because, again,
the original mail was to Google, not Iskon!)?

I don't get the second line either, I mean, being in the second line it
says nothing of the mail itself. Again, does the mail itself, the
source of it, changes when it is delivered to you? I'm talking about
the second line. Does the mail upon delivery get a line that basically
says: "I have just now been delivered to you?" and writes that line into

The third line, to me, is another key to understanding of the fact
that the mail was forwarded to me, and from Google Mail, sure, together
with the line 60 discussed above, and along with the painful context I
can now try to avoid details of, but which is also indicative to the
truth of the event.

But let's stick to the purely technical little truth in that context,
and that is that I had previously set, in the original query sent to
the singer's manager triple ways, in one of those ways, the way from my
Claws mailbox, with my Claws program, that I had in my Claws-sent
e-mail set the "Reply-To" line to be exactly:

Reply-To: croatian-news at googlegroups.com

and having neither me any Google Mail in my Claws mailbox, nor
Iskon having any Google Mail on their servers for sending or
receiving e-mails, if we take it as truth of the event that the line 60
of the source mail is authentic in the sense that it shows what
address my correspondent when replying to my initial e-mail send his
reply to, than he indeed sent his reply to:

croatian-news at googlegroups.com

I bet none of you will oppose me in my belief that normal it is when an
e-mail is send to a mailing list set up for the public to
exercize free speech on issues non-criminal and morally reputable and
decent, such as Google Groups Mailing lists (now turning into forums and
Google+ prozealitizers)...  I bet none of you will oppose that it is
normal for an e-mail sent to a mailing list-group-forum to be in the
least, if the sender (in this case the singer's manager) is a reputable
person, to be in the least stowed in among the pending messages for that
mailing list (in this case Croatian-News Google Group mailing list,
turning into forum), for moderators (users like me who moderate the
group, there are a small number of us), to approve of it and post it to
the group, or to disapprove of it and delete it.

Most public e-forums and mailing lists not only admit new messages in
among the pending to be reviewed by users-moderators or the like, but
pronto send subscription invitations, don't they?

But the singer's manager's mail wasn't admitted in among the pending
messages for one of us moderators of the group to manage. No, and it
can be clearly seen that it wasn't admitted so in the Screencast video
that I made. That's why I made it, that's why I keep screencasting,
because I am prohibited from the society of my own by those who hate
free speech for whichever motives of theirs. 

I'm really sorry for things not being honky dory for you to not ever
having to read reasoning like mine. Really sorry!

Iskon has no Google Mail program for sending and receiving mails either
(neither me, nor they), so if not the recipient of the mail sent to 
croatian-news at googlegroups.com
then maybe some monkeys from space (those that write Bibles in the
experiments of atheists proving there is no God, I gave a link
somewhere what I meant (here again: System attacked, Konqueror went on
spree! http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-905472.html#7189918 ).
Well of course not. It could only have been those that normally should
have admitted the singer's manager's reply in the pending messages, and
it sure it was them, the Google Croatia who, had they been normal,
would promptly send an subscription invitation to pugna at pugna.hr
Are they normal? Or full of some hatred maybe? Them, not me?
But still, how do I see things positively when this happens over and
over to me, and Croatian-News Google group is just one of the venues?

Now, if you look up, it's different context, pls. bear in mind any of
you who want your mail as if under, what looks to me (I respect your
positions, but mine is this one), as if under holy glass window
protecting you from intrusion of the pain that is sometimes outside (on
which I can try and comply to your wishes as much as I can without
forbidding the truth though)... But if you look up my provider's
interface, for the sake of finding out the technical details of this
source mail... Wait...

This is my provider's web interface (start viewing at minute 9., got

http://youtu.be/XsTYEEbwY3g WARINING: start at minute 0:9:00

Now, that's my provider's interface. Any Google mail there for them to
send and receive as gmail?

IMO, my provider didn't send to me all the headers that it received
from Google Mail, I guess you will all agree that what I got is far too
scanty on the *forwarded mail*'s sender's headers...

Anyone could show more of true knowledge and a little tollerance for
the heavily censored and truelly politically persecuted (I have
friends, true friend who are in exile, else, they would probably have
already died in prison), even without supporting my cause, but just
without yelling at me, because I told you in the very first lines of
the first message pf this thread that the technical details would be
found and how you could pronto find them, so if you went and read how
bitter lives can be for dissenters, and don't feel for me but instead
want to silence me, that's a glass window sindrome...

But, I was saying, if anyone could show more of true knowledge on what
else the Google lines stand for if not for what I expound in this
message, and in the previous messages, and in the videos, go on, to the
light of day your arguments!

Again, what else if not how I explained above mean these two lines:

Line 3:
Received: (qmail 215653 invoked from network); 7 Dec 2012 13:51:50 +0100

Line 60:
To: 'croatian-news at googlegroups.com'

And, to me, because I am sure I am right nearly completely (maybe small
details, not the fundamental fact that it went through Google and that
neither me nor Iskon have any Google Mail to use for either sending or
receiving of mail, (maybe small details) could be found where my
reasoning is flawed, but only people or greater understanding than mine
could point those out; I am not aware of them at this time)...

And, to me, is this a normal forwarded mail? I don't think so. I believe
a lot was scrubbed from the mail received from Google Mail and it was
scrubbed by Iskon, the provider (who, those who went and saw the
video and their web interface, can't even adapt to modern times, but
keep their interface in iso-8850-2, God!), scrubbed the forwarded mail
just short of falsifying it, being aware that falsifying it would have
been a criminal offence.

How about that, Iskon, once you come to read these lines? Dear gay
joyous Iskon that I can't no more think positively of, because you
delete so much of my mail, and mail that people send to me, week after
week, for years now!?

Thank you, Claws people and users, for your patience.
I will be thankful for anyone's especially more knowledgeable people
than us so far, and if there was anyone really bigger guy from among
you who reply to my mail (I mean programmer, developer), I can go and
read their mails over again...

The problem is, and trying to comply as much as possible, (for the love
of God, or if you don't believe in God, for the sake of the Truth, the
Peace, the Good, the Order, the whatever Positive you believe in) the
reason I submitted the source mail to Claws mailing list, was because
the "Message" showed "strange redirection" and if this does not "reveal"
"censorship", and if the context (the painful context that some of you
hate) is duly  explained, but if you have been given opportunity to
skip to the technical details right from the start of the topic,
because I clearly stated so in the top mail of this topic, and the
purely technical context can be pronto skipped onto without reading the
non-tech... I leave this thought unfinished, use plain logic to arrive
at conclusion...

But wait, there's more.

"Message shows strange redirection (reveals censorship)" is the title
of this thread.

And that's the issue. You can't read a book without putting it on the
table or keeping it in your hands. The table, or your hands is
censorship here, the book is the technical stuff...

But I wanted to apologize for being late to reply. I am a rather
physically sick oldish man, I am not very agile and have had to be
spending a lot of time in bed for weeks lately.

Thank you!

Miroslav Rovis
m.rovis at inet.hr
miro.rovis at gmail.com
01 660 2633
091 266 0202
#===      was sentenced to jail, 2 ys on parole, for political views,
http://www.croatiafidelis.hr/Miroslav_Rovis_politicki_progon/ # but no
English there at this time http://www.exDeo.com
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