[Translators] Hebrew Translation

[Genghis Khan]

I am not translating for an audience of 20 special users, I am
translating for the majority of the Hebrew speaking audience.

On Sat, 29 Nov 2014 11:38:55 +0200
fr33domlover <fr33domlover at riseup.net> wrote:

> On 2014-11-29
> "Genghis Khan" <genghiskhan at gmx.ca> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I am very delighted about you contacting me on this matter.  I would
> > appreciate you taking over the translation of Claws Mail, too, as
> > long as you would not distort context (i.e. turning verb into
> > adverb, e.g. copy into copying)
> 
> 
> Actually I'm for using "copying" and not "copy". I really like the
> translations of GNOME and some parts of XFCE and LXDE and I think
> they're the best translations around. Mozilla, KDE, etc. are not as
> good. For example I don't like KDE's use of gender. I prefer gender
> neutrality.
> 

(sarcasm)
You as well tell that to all those who write theme engines for various
of toolkits, that attempt to create a consistent look and feel.
(sarcasm)

The original GNOME translation used to be exactly like the one of
Microsoft Windows, by the way.

When users see the following on the same system (e.g. Windows):

Own              | Microsoft
-----------------------------
Cutting          | Cut
Copying          | Copy
Pasting          | Past
Deleting         | Delete
Selection of All | Select All

Most of them would drop Claws Mail. This is not a desired result!

If we would translate application against common guidelines, people and
companies will almost always drop such applications!
http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-l10n-he/2012-December/000245.html

When Android OS and Microsoft Windows would use "copying", I would
definitely change my mind.

> Here's a (controversial) idea: Since Claws can have i18n in a
> separate package, why don't we create 2 separate PO files? One would
> be in the KDE style and one in the GNOME style to which I'm used (and
> I believe is superior).
> 

Since such style of using adverbs instead of verbs (biblical style) is
rare, I suggest to open a project that would provide packages for many
distributions with a new locale he_BL.

> 
> You see , using verbs like "copy" creates tons of inconsistency and
> it's harder to the eyes. You have these on the same toolbar:
> 
> שליחה
> טיוטה
> שבץ
> ספח
> כתובת
> 
> Do you notice how some are verbs in one form, some in another, and
> some are nouns? I want to try something more elegant like I do with
> GNOME.
> 

Yes, I did notice, as depicted in KDE/Windows translation guidelines.
By the way, I have translated all toolbar buttons strings in Sylpheed
to verbs, and I have planned to do the same in Claws-Mail.

> 
>  
> > It appears that Claws Mail uses an older tree widget. See Sylpheed
> > for a proper tree (though, I like the resize effect - black line -
> > of Claws Mail tree than the one of Sylpheed - content changing),
> > but still, there is, at least, ome tree widget in Claws Mail that
> > is RTL adaptable.
> > 
> > http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/sylpheed-claws/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=2795
> > http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/sylpheed-claws/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=2836
> > http://www.thewildbeast.co.uk/sylpheed-claws/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3095
> 
> I'll take a look sometime.
> 
> > > As to the first, here's the story. I suggested to make the Hebrew
> > > translation, but I was told someone nicknamed GenghisKhan was
> > > already making one. When I tried that translation, I noticed
> > > strange things. For example, "Compose" is translated as "הלחנה"
> > > which means "compose music" and is not suitable for "compose
> > > message".
> > > 
> > 
> > I like הלחנה more, but I agree with you.
> 
> Sure, but it's incorrect. I always prefer to use the existing words
> that make sense. It must work well for new non-technical users (imho).
> 

It is not incorrect, it is not common. You might want to see how this
word takes place in correspondences of several offices of the prime
minister of the State of Israel.

> > > Many examples like this exist there, so I decided to ask whether
> > > maybe the translator's native language is not Hebrew. I was told
> > > he stands behind his translation and that's fine - but I'd like
> > > to have a chance to propose my own too.
> > > 
> > 
> > I did wrote that I use words that are not commonly used.
> 
> As long as people understand. In some other application you
> translated, Gigolo, I saw the word מגשר־חזיתי in the About window.
> What the hack is מגשר־חזיתי? Nobody would have any idea. I needed a
> few long seconds to understand it probably means frontend. But it may
> be a bit too much - we should target the simple users, not
> uourselves, the translators, who may be amused by new words :-)
> 

Back-end (מגשר-עורפי) Front-end (מגשר-חזיתי). So far, I have not saw
anything better than these phrases, of which I am not the one who came
up with. You might have seen the sign says איתנים בעורף מנצחים בחזית.

If you went to the army, these phrases would make perfect sense to you.

> > > Here's what I suggest: I will at some point (when a bit less busy)
> > > make a PO file based on the current one, with my fixes, and send
> > > it here so GenghisKhan can take a look and see if he likes it. If
> > > he does - perfect, we can merge the changes. If not... well, at
> > > least tell me why :-)
> > > 
> > 
> > Please do; and please either follow Microsoft Windows guidelines
> > whereas verbs are verbs and Window Title & Menu Item... are
> > adverbs, as depicted in the links below:
> 
> Micros0ft Losedows is a proprietary OS, there's no way I'm using
> anything that comes from them...
> 

(sarcasm)
Please, ask Claws Mail team to stop providing a Microsoft Windows build
of Claws Mail.
(sarcasm)

> In the worst case, if Claws officially goes by KDE, I'll just make 1)
> PO file with some words replaced with more simple ones but verbs
> unchanged, 2) same but also with the overall style like my GNOME
> translations, which can be a separate patch people can apply.
> 
> The one can be in Claws and the other can just be a patch.
> Personally, the current style (no offense, I guess it's KDE rules)
> hurts my eyes and I can't easily find things, so I'll probably prefer
> the patch.
> 

But most of Hebrew speaking audience (Android OS, iOS, Microsoft
Windows) see that style every day. When the majority of Hebrew speaking
users would use the biblical style, I promise I would adjust to it.

> > http://il.kde.org/hebrew/visualdict/
> > http://il.kde.org/hebrew/guidelines/
> > 
> > Or in Android, KDE style.
> > 
> > Nowadays, KDE Hebrew is translated in masculine-only style (i.e. no
> > arbitrary use of adverbs as suggested in above couple of links).
> 
> I think gender neutrality is a superior approach, that's why verbs
> (e.g. "copy") are not used (instead I use "copying").
> 

Do you apply that there is discrimination against one of the genders?

While most words in French are feminine, GNOME-FR an KDE-FR are
translating all strings in consistent masculine-only form. There is
nothing machismo or sexist about that.


> > > I already translated various apps and websites (or parts of them)
> > > to Hebrew (especially ones maintained under GNOME, but also
> > > others), so there's no problem on the technical side. I just want
> > > to help keep a high level of Hebrew translation :-)
> > > 
> > 
> > Great!
> > 
> > > (GenghisKhan - I don't in any way mean to offend. I just want to
> > > help improve Claws and its translation. Let's work together on
> > > this.)
> > > 
> > 
> > No way. The more translators, the better. The goal is to get more
> > users to use either free operating systems or, at least, standard
> > formats.
> 
> 
> Great. I believe one translator per language is enough for Claws, and
> I'm glad to see it has a maintainer for Hebrew. I thought I could be,
> before I realized you already translated it :-)
> I'll just send you POs when they're ready and you'll judge.
> 

Please follow:

http://il.kde.org/hebrew/visualdict/
http://il.kde.org/hebrew/guidelines/

No verb as adverb.

> BTW I'm using LXDE and XFCE, i.e. not GNOME/KDE, and almost
> everything is in the GNOME style. It's also the same translators as
> GNOME, so makes sense. So this style may end up being consistent with
> much more software (although I do think it's superior regardless, so
> maybe I'm biased).
> 

Q: Did the "translator" who is responsible for this new biblical style
   asked the original translators (including myself - under another
   nickname) about the changes that he has made?
A: No.

Q: Does this "translator" using he_IL locale or en_US?
A: en_US.

Q: Did this translator is spawning his name in credits even when he
   "contributes" (not to say corrupting) to the work of others?
A: Yes, MANY TIMES!

P.S. I have contributed over 50% of strings to Liferea, while each time
I ask the original translator to review my changes and I have asked not
to appear in credits dialog (this is why I also use this pseudo name).

> 
> > > --
> > > fr33domlover
> > > PGP key ID: 63E5E57D
>